Comments, Racism and Censorship: The Tightrope We Walk

June 16th, 2008 | by: Laurie |

It’s tournament time. What does this mean?

It means that once again the France blog will be taking more than it’s share of racist and/or xenophobic comments due to the fact that a number of players are not white.

Some of the comments are just uninformed, like the people who say that France steals adult players from Africa just to play them on the team. Those comments are easy to refute with simple facts: Nearly all French players were either born in France or came to the country at a very young age. I don’t see any reason to delete these comments because they provide a chance to educate. (But I do think I’ll keep a player’s list on file listing birthplaces and ages at immigration, so I can just repost it over and over.)

It gets a little tougher to call when the comments become what most of us would consider offensive. Do we draw a line, and if so, when and where do we draw it? That’s the dilemma we’re faced with as writers for this blog.

We do try to monitor comments as much as possible. If you write something here, it’s read and reflected on, whether or not we respond. And we do delete blatantly abusive stuff. What we can’t do, unfortunately, is be here like a nanny, 24/7. And frequently by the time we spot abusive comments, there are so many responses that deleting the original and offensive comment would create more questions and issues than it would resolve. In these cases, I often feel that it’s best to let the conversation run its course.

But this brings us to a larger issue. What’s the best response to people like this? Is it to simply delete the comments, hoping they’ll take their stuff elsewhere? Or is it better to allow people to respond to it and drag the bigotry out into the light of day where it can be killed off by rational thought?

I did catch the comments yesterday, several hours after the fact. If I’d caught the first one right away, I would have deleted it. I’m almost glad I didn’t, because then everyone else would have missed out on thoughtful comments from other readers. Comments like this one, from reader “Set.”

You’re talking about people here. Imagine you were born in Italy with parents born in Africa. You would consider it fair not to be able to represent the country where you’ve grown up and that you love, just because your parents weren’t born here? Nobody denies the roots of Thuram, Desailly, etc, it’s not the point. The point is it’s legitimate for them to play for their country, the one they love and that they’ve grown up in.
It’s football, it’s just a freaking game. It’s not about trying to find whose nation’s genes are better or something. That would make no sense on so many levels.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

So here’s what I’m asking from you:

If a comment is blatantly racist and/or offensive, don’t respond! Email me at laurie[at]theoffside[dot]com and ask me to take a look. I can delete it, especially if we catch it early enough in the process.
If a comment is questionable, think about whether this could be what parenting books refer to as “a teachable moment.” Can we use this opportunity to educate? If not to educate the original commenter, then the people who come in after and read our responses?
And finally, let’s all work to be sure that the rational side of the argument is the one that’s presented rationally. It’s easy for all of us to get caught up in the heat of the moment, but it’s in everybody’s best interest to present these things in a calm and thoughtful way.

I do have the option of banning certain commenters or shutting down comments on individual posts. But these are always last resorts for me. I like to think that given enough exposure, the best ideas will win out.

And thanks for reading and commenting.

France World Cup Blog RSS Feed

sandrahn

Laurie, I’m glad you wrote this. I assume you did so because of my complaint. The #1 thing that has frustrated me is that there seems to be no acknowledgement of this issue at all on this entire website. I’ve felt that it’s just a free-for-all around here, no rules or standards, with people being totally free to type comments like this:

“The made in AFRICA team France can take an early vacation to the deepest depths of ilimanjaro jungle”

Or calling Gomis a monkey.

Now lots of the stupid anti-France posts that appear on this blog I don’t complain about (for deletion) but when it comes to blatant, neanderthal, ugly racism like the above, I think it’s fair to expect to adopt the policies of other football blogs I read.

On those blogs, comments like the ones above are deleted immediately and the person warned or banned outright if they continue to post similar comments.

As for educating people….well I don’t know how it’s possible to educate ignorant bigots, they’re totally rigid in their mindsets, totally closed to rational arguments. A few idiots may be able to see some reason when you point out that the non-white members of the France squad were born and raised in France, or emigrated at very young ages, that nearly all of them never played football in Africa or the Caribbean, etc. (The only exceptions I can think of are Trezeguet and Dhorashoo). But I think they’ll still flail away with their little bigotries. Bigots are emotionally invested in their archaic ideologies, immune to reason.

Set’s comments were wonderful, I just don’t think they had any impact at all.

However, I won’t make an issue about this point and will just agree to disagree with you that educating these people is a worthy endeavor.

I will say, tho, that the discussion that ensued about genetics and authenticity in nationality certainly was racist in nature, and had nothing to do with football. Any talk of who is a “true European” according to a person’s skin color and racial/ethnic background is, to me, racist by its very nature.

I accept that you’ll allow that kind of debate here. I also accept that it’s better not to give such morons the dignity of a response.

I’ll try to control myself. Unfortunately, I know I’ll probably give into the temptation and respond to them on occasion.
Phil

A terrific answer to such accusations of the French team, which can be honest questions, is to point out that Germany has Poles, Portugal has Brazilians (Deco is VERY questionable), and Poland has a blatant steal of a Brazilian. France’s are totally legit.
Michel-Olivier

@ Phil
italy has Argentines, turkey has english and brazilian, and spain has brazilian(senna)
Frédéric

@ Phil and Michel-Olivier, England also has a Canadian (Hargreaves), Germany’s Podolski is Polish, and the Dutch also feature talent with origins in their colonies in Suriname and Indonesia. Also, wasn’t there a big controversy regarding Italian clubs being very “creative” with Brazilian players’ citizenships so that they could avoid the rules regarding the number of non-European players on the teams?
k

phil, michel-olivier, frederic, that is hardly the best way to educate the moronic, narrow minded posters whose comments sound eerily reminiscent of hitler’s drive to “cleanse” the country of several different races and ideologies…

in fact, wouldnt that just reinforce the idea that there actually is a difference and that we arent all the same… all that does is exemplify that “hey, its not just france that does this, look here, even the germans, italians and the dutch do this”

there is nothing wrong with what france does, imo… (and i am all about the azzuri, so i am hardly biased to the french point of view) i think that any player that feels an emotional tie to the the country has a right to play for it… of course my idea is too subjective, so it becomes too difficult to figure out if a player is only doing so to improve his chances of winning important trophies…

there is no right answer to the morons who come here parading “facts” and hiding behind the cloak of “logic” and pretending that they arent racist and that we are only attempting to portray them as… they are just what they are, and its not that they cannot be proven wrong, they just will not be proved wrong… or maybe i am too cynical, but i have seen far too much racism in this world (and it doesnt even matter where you go, you will find one form or another of this phenomenon)… i dont know what it is, maybe its the need to feel superior to someone else for some inane differences that on the grand scheme of things isnt a difference at all…
http://belgium.worldcupblog.org julien

Laurie, I read your “France’s Colonial Legacy” post. Martinique, Guadeloupe, and Guyane are overseas departments of France (départements d’outre-mer). They ARE part of the French Republic. In France we consider them to be French. It is like Hawaiians being considered Americans. Those players have every right to play for France.
Frédéric

K, very rarely (if ever), would you see a poster anywhere on the internet complaining that Owen Hargreaves is not a real Englishman, Lukas Podolski is not a real German, or Mauro Camoranesi is not really Italian. But you frequently see posts of this sort about the French team, why is that? Why is it only on this team’s blog that you read comments comparing players to monkeys and other hateful words? These people are blatant racists, and are simply making excuses for their hate. I also think that, no matter how hard you try, nothing you can write or explain to a bigot will change their mindset (this is through my experience). But by pointing out the diversity of other countries’ national teams, and how rarely anyone complains about them, I hope that the blatant racism and hypocrisy of those posting these types of comments will be exposed.
k

well, tbh, i havent heard anyone complaining about hargreaves, but i have heard plenty about camoranesi not being italian… nothing as strong as the french supporters have to endure, i am sure (being black unfortunately adds an extra realm of insults that are completely disgraceful)… in fact, there are a lot of italians who themselves find his presence in the italian squad annoying and often complain that he doesnt even know the words to the italian national anthem…

i do realize that the french team has to endure such comments far more so than any other team… if the united states national team ever did beat an important team in the world cup or international competition, you can be sure to find such comments against them as well… the reason they attack the french is because of their success… no one talks about owen hargreaves because england’s national team have not been successful in recent times… and if germany wins the euro08, i would not be surprised to hear a lot of comments against their striker list… i read a post on offside earlier which pretty much talked about none of them are “really” german… and the camoranesi comment got exemplified after italy won the world cup… comments like that are nothing more than sour grapes and/or jealousy and/or fan bias…

most of these people would grab on to anything they can to put down the french national team… thats why there are plenty of detractors on the italy website whether its about the entire italian population being “whiners” “arrogant” “self-entitled” “un-deserving” and the list is truly endless… while these words may be less strong than the words used against france, they are no less stereotypical (what makes a person think that they have the right to judge an entire population based on their own presumptions is truly beyond me) and the reasoning behind them are simple… these people want to grab on to anything to put down these nations… and there is only one reason for that… THESE ARE THE NATIONS THAT ACTUALLY CAN BE PUT DOWN. ie, THESE ARE THE NATIONS THAT ARE UP THERE. WE HAVE STRONG TEAMS. they dont go after england because until they win something they cannot be pulled down…

they cannot insult our (italian and french) team play (well until we met the dutch anyway ) and hence they clutch on to straws… the only way to stop them is for the teams to start sucking, and its unlikely that either of us want to see that…
Michel-Olivier

@ julien
“Those players have every right to play for France.”
but domenech doesn’t give them(clichy, briand, marveaux, gouffran…) a chance to represent france.
k

by italy website i meant italy offside posts…
Michel-Olivier

“Vieira Out Of Italy Tie” according to goal.com
“I was hoping to play that last group match but, unfortunately, the pain is still there and I don’t know when I will be able to resume playing.”(Vieira)
i bet domenech feel stupid for sending flamini home.
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

Good post Laurie,
so many Italian websites should read this. They keep on saying the same things over and over again.

But obviously Camoranesi, Balotelli, Manfredini, Osvaldo and possibly Amauri are no problem.

Just look at the Swiss team, we live in a multicultural country and that is reflected by the team (Spaniards, Kosovars, Colombians, Turks etc.). No problem there for the Swiss!
k

jan, i dont understand why you must find a way to underhand-edly insult italians every opportunity you get?! this post was obviously directed at the racist posts by a certain individual in an earlier blog entry

stereotypical statements like that make you no different from the ones who you feel are prejudicial…

i commented on this blog, because i too feel disgusted by some of the posts of the explicit, outlandish and outrageous racism in one of the previous posts… but i must say, whether one is implicit or explicit in their stereotypical insults the only difference between the two people are the sides they are on…
-nickt.-

thanks everyone for addressing this. now if only we could figure out how to rid people’s minds of this shit….
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

k, I don’t want to open the discussion again. It’s sufficient to read a post by Gazzetta dello Sport or any football forum in Italy and you will understand the meaning of the word racism.
The reason why I supported France in the World Cup Final was mostly because I was tired of this racial hatred and I don’t see why France should always be attacked.
http://france.worldcupblog.org Laurie

Julien, thanks, I’ve been meaning to go in and edit that post for the past few months, but it keeps slipping my mind.
set

Thank you for appreciating my comments. I thought I made myself look stupid for answering to him, because I was just giving him more exposure than he deserved. I got a bit carried away :$

k: I agree with your comment about haters grabbing on to anything to put down the team. Jealousy and competition often have this impact on people, in many domains.
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

And don’t consider my thoughts stereotypical insults, you are mistaken. I’m just stating the facts, I live in this country and I know what is wrong and what is right here. The anti-French movement is simply disgusting and I’m not sure whether there is any such thing in other countries (the media also relish in mocking the French team).
Phil

Even if a player has legitimate citizenship, I think FIFA should mandate the following for players to be eligible:
1) speak the language fluently and be able to pass a rigorous exam
2) lived at least 2/3 of life in mainland
3) have the country’s FA president sign a “good faith” affidavit and publicly explain why a questionable player is being picked and if it follows the spirit of the rules
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

Last but not least “insulting italians every opportunity you get” is quite insulting, isn’t it? I don’t see what was so insulting in my post.
Michel-Olivier

@ phil
FIFA have no right to interfere in countries immigration or political affairs.
Michel-Olivier

@ Jan
italians are nice people, it’s the football fans and hooligans that are bad
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

They’re like everyone else, not better, not worse. Human beings are the same everywhere. I’m not saying that. I’m just fed up that the most read newspaper in Italy, La Gazzetta dello Sport, allows some openly questionable comments about the French team and no one does anything about it. The few times I’ve tried asking them to stop, I just received hundreds of insults.

To me Thuram, Makelele, Malouda etc. ARE FRENCH. Doesn’t matter what colour their skin is or what car they like driving or all this rubbish, if a society is multicultural you can’t prevent the team from being multicultural.
http://switzerland.worldcupblog.org Jan

And that’s why Laurie’s post should be on the top of the website. These racist comments are against football.
sandrahn

I’d like to thank k for his posts here — an Italian/supporter of Italy (the two are not necessarily the same) poster from this website coming to this page with eminently reasonable, rational comments. I don’t mean to be patronizing at all, k, it’s just that we get a lot of people here from the Italy page posting some really ignorant comments. So I really do appreciate your comments.

You are entirely correct in criticizing those who post on the Italy page regularly and say vicious things about Italy. It’s bigotry, pure and simple. I concede that I have given into this kind of thing myself once or twice, tho I’ve never posted on the Italy page (and I do believe I haven’t been as bad as some others), I never use slurs or epithets — and that’s mainly because of my anger at what Jan talks about: racism on the part of so many Italian fans, politicians, media against the French national team. I saw this close up in person here in Brooklyn, at various bars frequented by Italians. Some of the stuff I heard about the French NT will still remain vivid in my memory, unfortunately.

I’m half Italian and love Italy for so many reasons, I’ve visited there many times and lived there for 3 years straight in the 90s (while zizou was at Juve), basing myself in Genoa. But I too saw quite a lot of the stuff Jan refers to in the mainstream media, not just loony news sources. The kind of stuff you’d never see in mainstream discourse in the US. It’s the blatant, primitive racism that can be shocking — it’s like you’re back in a time warp.

I know there’s no excuse for reacting against racism with bigotry of your own kind, it’s just stupid. I’m just explaining my own experience with this.

Of course you could point out the racism faced by the French national team within their own country, and you’d be absolutely correct. The French NT face racist abuse from all corners — including from their very own countrymen. This is the irony: those who insult the French NT based on their race are in fact allies of the most rightwing, unsavory, arrogant, nationalistic element in France—the kind of French people they claim to despise.

k, I think what happened with the wc final in 2006 left a lot of scars and anger and unfortunately brought out the worst from people on all sides. I include myself in this. Far too many anti-France people believe that’s because France lost but I firmly believe it’s because of what happened with Materazzi and zizou. Had Italy simply won on pens with no such incident, you wouldn’t have seen all this rancor. Esp. from people like me, I expected Italy to win.

Anyway, this notion that there’s some kind of ultimate, empirical “test” that you can employ to measure someone’s “authentic” nationality or race is illogical and just plain ignorant. Scientists long ago concluded that there is no such scientific category as “race” anyway — it’s a political/cultural concept invented by the Victorians.
Michel-Olivier

@ jan
some of my friends are antillais francais some time they say the french team have to many players with dual nationality(senegal, mali, congo, algeria) that can represent other nations. the problem is not about skin color, it’s about passports and ethnic(culture, language, religion, values..) background.
when ferrari and liverani played for italy they did not complain.
http://blog.corvallissoccerblog.com/ corvallissoccer

The great thing about giving racists a forum to speak at is that it exposes them for what they are. I can tell you that “racists are stupid”, but you would have to take my word for it. There is nothing like first hand exposure to racism to remind you of how stupid it is.

But then again you don’t want to have a flame war here. Its not what this blog is about. I feel for you mods.
http://blog.corvallissoccerblog.com/ corvallissoccer

YES! Perfect timing Porchetta! Thank you dearly.

QUOTE:
“I formy detest and deplore any kind of racism but i definately believe that when it comes to representing a country in football, a player must be having a link to his country not only on account of his birth or passport but by ORIGINS, by GENES, by ANCESTORY…If you look at Italian football team, it is one of the most original in the world, the 23 players representing Italy are all original Italians with the probable exception of mauro Camoronesi who was born in Argentina but then he has links to Italy owing to the fact that his grandparents are of Italian descent. as simple as that.”

You said it loud and clear dude! Keep it up!
Michel-Olivier

@ Porchetta
French nationality is base on right of soil not right of blood like italy.
“the sovereign people of France are composed of all French citizens, regardless of ethnic origins or religious opinions.”(fr constitution).

“Betefemi Gomis might be a french citizen on account of his birth but he IS NOT OF GALLIC FRENCH ORIGINS”
president sarkozy is not of gallic french, so his not french ether right?
http://blog.corvallissoccerblog.com/ corvallissoccer

Dude I concede. I can’t compete with “the eternal truth”.

…eternal truth…seriously?…hehehe
Michel-Olivier

@ Porchetta
gomis was born in france and according to the constitution his french.

“France is an European nation”
last time i check france is a republic that contains lands from all over the globe.
Michel-Olivier

@ Porchetta
i give up you win
Jean-Michel

*yawn…Thanks for the history lesson guy. Never know when that Hapsburg trivia might come in handy. Based on the simple fact that Michel-Olivier dropped (France being a Republic), your dream of France fielding an all white team are slim to none. Sleep tight. Do you dream in color or black and white?
Michel-Olivier

@ Jean-Michel
“all white team are slim to none.”
i’m no jean-marie lepen, i want the french team to have more players from martinique/guadeloupe((clichy, briand, marveaux, gouffran), caledonie (piquionne), and reunion(payet, sinama-pongolle…)
Jean-Michel

Michel-Olivier,
I failed to specify that I was addressing Porchetta. He seemed stuck on the point he was trying to make about “TRUE GALIC/FRENCH ORIGINS” when refering to non-whites on the team. I am not suggesting that you favor Lepen in any way.
Michel-Olivier

@ Jean-Michel
his italian, he complains a lot like any other italians fans on this site, so just ignore them when they are not talking about football.
Fritz Gehbauer

I really enjoyed all of the comments. I never expected to find such a knowledge of history amongst football fans. Even if true or truly interpreted those comments won´t help in the future. Football is not about history, it is about money. Our passion for a marvellous sport? It is being used for making money: By a ridicilous boulevard press to increase its sales, even based on the most basic instincts. By fast and unhealthy food chains, by car makers. By polititians to show their populistic inclinations (have you seen Angela Merkel chatting with a failed second grader like Bastin Schweinsteiger? No German intellectual would get that chance). So, don´t worry about history. The future will be: National teams will be bought together. In the future a match between Germany and France will be not different from a match between Chelsea and Real Madrid: all players will be “nationalised” by money. The only sad thing with that is: Nations with less money will be the losers.

So, Italy and French fans don´t argue that seriously, just enjoy intelligent play from which ever brain and foot that comes from.

Fritz Gehbauer, Karlsruhe, Germany

So, don´t talk about history, talk about money.
http://france.worldcupblog.org Laurie

Okay, ladies and gents, I think we’ve all had the chance to make our points. I’m shutting down comments here because it’s getting personal.

The takehome lesson on this post is: make points in a way that is thoughtful, rational, and respectful, and please let me know of blatantly offensive/racist/etc. comments so I can delete them.

laurie[at]theoffside[dot]com.

A post is coming up soon on stuff that actually has to do with the game tomorrow!

allez les bleus!