Playing for France, or Playing for Africa?

Hi Laurie,

I actually posted a comment on this on the intial call-up thread (5/24), and then I had thought that one of the reasons Sagna got called up is that le Raymond wants to “lock” him up so that Senegal can’t have him.

However, as it turns out, he actually would not have been able to play for Senegal anyway, according to this (yes, I did a bit of interesting research on this, so I’m not 100% certain).

There is some precedent, though, in the case of Jlloyd Samuel (England/T&T).

After January 2004, it appears FIFA instituted a restriction on players with dual citizenship/nationality who have appeared for a country at U23/21/19/etc. level and have not received any “A” caps yet. According to this rule, the player in question must “apply” by the day of his 21st birthday to keep the second nationality “open” or else he can only play for the country which he represented at U-x level.

Such had been the case with Jlloyd Samuel, who was born in Trinidad, represented England at U-21 and actually got called into the senior team as well, though he did NOT receive a cap at that level.

When the World Cup came around, Trinidad wanted to him to play for them and vice versa, since he’s not exactly a threat to Ashley Cole. FIFA then shot it down, though, citing what I’ve mentioned.

So with Sagna, who HAS appeared in the U-21s and HAS turned 21, it appears, according to this, he could only play for Les Bleus, which leads me to think he was named into the squad more on his being named (I think) as the top full-back in Ligue 1 than Domenech trying to hoard jewels out of Africa. (Regardless, I would have wanted Mexes in the squad, as he was named ROMA PLAYER OF THE SEASON.)

The rule on getting senior team caps is actually a lot simpler. If a player does get a cap at the “A” or senior level (it doesn’t matter whether it’s in a friendly, a testimonial game, anything), he’s locked. End of story.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that it works both ways (as there are those, like El-Mourabet and Chamakh) who chose their African roots instead of France. Liverpool’s Mohammed Sissoko did as well, and he was capped at the U-21 level I think for France.

I think I’m alright with it as long as the player didn’t “abandon” his country or a national team coach didn’t “rob” another country of its DEVELOPING the skills. For example, if Patrick Vieira, born in Dakar (Senegal), had played there in all his youth and joined the youth teams there, then I would feel guilty if he joined Les Bleus. (That wasn’t the case, as Vieira was “brought up” at Cannes, where he’d be with other stars, actually, Zizou and Micoud.)

Wow, this is a long post. Sorry about that. One more point, though. I’ll admit that I do have a sneaking suspicion that Domenech does know the FIFA regulations and has attempted to “rush” players into the senior squad in order to get them a cap. After all, he did call up Higuain, though he decided to join Argentina. (Higuain, I think, I’m quite ambivalent about as he was born in France, but raised in Argentina, doesn’t speak any French. Though he plays for Real.)

Whew. Anyway, terrific job on the blog, btw, I’m not 100% certain everything I typed is correct, though I did check all the sources.

Thanks for researching this. I did a half-hearted google search and came up with a 2001 set of FIFA rules showing that players were inelegible for a country if they played on a youth team. I knew that had changed but never found specific details of the revisions like you’re showing. (I did find details of a 2004 rule change requiring players to have at least some connection to the counrty they’re playing for to get rid of football mercenaries. So Brazilians can no longer suddenly move to Qatar to join the National Team, which I found humorous.)

The article I read certainly seemed to believe that Sagna was eligible to play for Senegal. Now I’m curious. Do you have a link to your source?(Not that I don’t believe you completely — I just like to read things like this myself so I can apply them and write accurately about them in the future.)

And I agree with you about having no problem with Vieira-type or Thuram-type players on the team. They’re completely French, to my way of thinking. I guess my biggest concern is those players who get one call-up and are then dropped, when they could be doing good things for a smaller country.

I also thought the Higuain thing was funny. Clearly a case of Domenech trying to mark his territory, with the “territory” not wanting to be marked!

Posted from  United States

On the Jlloyd Samuel affair, try this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4527526.stm

For the Pedro Emnauel and Angola story: http://www.cosafa.com/stories/STORY_438.html

Interestingly enough, though, I’ve also had a look at some articles that would appear to indicate Sagna could have worn a Senegal jersey. Perhaps Kasperczak thinks he can win on an appeal to FIFA?

Interestingly enough, if one looks at some of the even younger generation, there are some choices those players will have to make. To name a few,

Hatem Ben Arfa (87, Lyon, was courted by Tunisia for the WC, but has indicated he’d want to join his former U-16 buddies Nasri and Benzema for France)
Karim El-Mourabet (87, Nantes, born in France, but chose Morocco)
Distel Zola (89, Monaco, captain of the U-18s, born in Paris, appears to be inclined to join Les Bleus instead of Congo)
Frédéric Nimani (88, Monaco, same as Zola, French-born, wants France instead of Chad)

Everything I’m seeing says that you’re 100% correct. Changing countries requires a declaration before the 21st birthday if a player has played for a youth international squard.

I’m wondering why the article was so certain that he could play for Senegal. Question for anybody. All of the articles I saw — those above plus a couple of others — were dated before World Cup. There haven’t been any changes in the past year, have there? Or was the article just a case of wishful thinking on the part of Senegal?

Posted from  United States

I see why small countries like Senegal would want a rule change, but I think it would be really dangerous.

There are some who made representation a cold blooded decision. Think Mauro Camoranesi (Argentina but plays for Italy), Deco (Brazil but plays for Portugal), Kanoute (French but plays for Mali). These guys knew they didn’t have a good chance into making it into their proper NTs, so they chose to play for a country where they knew they would, either by heritage or by birth.

These types of players are the ones who often draw criticism because it’s no longer about representing their country but their own interests.

Then you have people who genuinely don’t feel an affinity with a smaller country. Take Karim Benzema, who could have played for Algeria. He turned it down saying that while Algeria is the land of his parents, he feels French. Same thing with Gonzalo Higuain. Despite being born in France, he feels Argentine. Freddy Adu is from Ghana but was raised in the US and wants to play for the American NT. Drogba could have played for France but felt a greater pull to represent the Ivory Coast.

Perhaps Sagna would have more opportunities to play for Senegal, and Senegal could certainly use his services. But if Sagna says he’s French, no one can say otherwise.

Posted from  United States

This is an interesting discussion and debate. Let us not forget that in the past things were so messy. Players would play for say Argentina in the world cup one tournament and then play for Italy in the next…or even the great Puskas who was the leader of the formidable Hungarian team and then played for Spain in the 1962 world cup. At least now I feel players need to be accountable for their choices and the system is fairly clear. While some nations may suffer in some cases, other times they do not - Mali being a good case. They got Kanoute and Sissoko when both decided to play for Mali rather than France (where both were born), under the old system they would be “stuck” in the French rotation…although I would not mind seeing either one available for Les Bleus, especially Sissoko!

Posted from  United States

hahaha

im not even gonna say anything

except…AGAIN!!

how many french ppl are actually on the french team?

Posted from  Canada

Saying Malouda is not French because he’s from French Guiana is like saying that someone born in an American territory can’t be called an American.

The entire “But he’s not really French” debate is stupid and stems from jealousy.

I wonder how the US would do in sports if they excluded players who are the children of immigrants or who are naturalized citizens here.

Posted from  United States

GFC, Inara, and everybody, I hear what you’re saying. At the same time, I don’t know that a twenty-year-old has the life experience and maturity to make good choices. Say he has a 2% chance of ever playing for France, but 100% chance of playing for a less famous and less wealthy country. Did you have the maturity at twenty to weigh those odds? At twenty you’re invincible and OF COURSE you’ll be part of that 2%.

I’ll tell you what I’d implement if I were god of FIFA. (Are you listening, Michel Platini? Sepp Blatter? Of course you are.) I’d give every player the option of switching countries one time after the age of twenty-one, even if they’ve played on a country’s senior team.

But…hmm…on second thought, that opens the door to a Drogba or Kanoute having a chat with Raymond and then playing for France, too.

A very complicated issue! I’m enjoying the debate.

(Supersebgrimaldi, can you give me a shorter version of your name to call you by if I want to mention one of your comments?)

Posted from  United States

Seb will do fine.

I’ll add that Vieira and Maké, the only 2 players I believe who were born outside France, are much more French than Deco is Portuguese/Camoranesi is Italian/Jonathan de Guzman (whose brother has been on the Canada NT) is Dutch.

I really don’t regret or fault the FFF for not having Drogba/Kanoute/Sissoko. Drogba was a late bloomer, as he didn’t become a star at all until he was 24-25. It’s almost the same with Freddie, who struggled to score early in his career. Also, the 77-78-79 generation has produced so many terrific strikers (Henry, Trez, Anelka, Saha, add Piquionne if you will).

As for Momo Sissoko, the defensive midfield position in the 84-87 generation is more than crowded. Lassana Diarra, Mavuba, Diaby, Flamini, Ducasse, etc.

Im sorry but you cant compare America to France. They have different histories. Are we all going to act like France doesnnt have an ethnic population or are we going to say that France is like America or Canada or australia where there isnt any original ethnicity. Ive noticed that when people make the comparison they say ‘then all the black players shouldnt play’, excuse me, then neither should all the whities either. First Nations peoples are the true ethnicity of north america. its not white people, all they did is lie, deceipt, and enslave.

Posted from  Canada

Players such as Henry, Benzema, Nasri and mostly all others who hold dual citizenships were for the most part all born and raised in France (other than Makelele and Viera as mentioned earlier). Their first language is French, their friends are French and I’m sure they consider themselves as such. If we start saying that only people of true French descent can play for the national team then its gonna take years of painstaking DNA research to prove it. There has been so much migration by different peoples across history to all corners of the Earth that countries nowadays are made up of all races. Its win or lose in these situations because for every Ben Arfa you lose a Drogba (in the future this will be a close comparison hehe).

Firstly, Platini isn’t head of FIFA, he’s the new big cheese over UEFA.

More importantly, I’m amazed that more of you aren’t considering the patriotic side to this. I’ll bet that each of these players have a preferred ideal for who they would wish to represent. Which country they feel they owe their allegiance to.

Most people on here seem to be just talking about players playing for the national team that they can, where they have some link to allow it.

For me, I was born and raised in England but have a Welsh grandfather and some players have managed to argue their way onto national teams via such tenuous links. However, if I were good enough to play for Wales and not England, I would feel like a right fraud pulling on a Wales jersey.

Posted from  United States

Fab as usual demonstrates his ignorance and bigotry.

The overwhelming majority of France’s NT were either born and raised in France (making them French citizens, educated and trained there) or emigrated to France at very young ages (as toddlers or small children) — and were raised, educated and trained in France. Just because I was born in Brazil and emigrated to the US at the age of 4 doesn’t mean I am not an “authentic American”, whatever that means. It means that I am both Brazilian and American. The sheer stupidity of people like Fab beggars belief. Barack Obama, currently running for president, has an African father who emigrated to the US. Obama was born and raised in the US, as was Sagna. Is Obama not a “real” American?

For me the bottom line here is that it’s entirely up to the player. Freddy Kanoute was born in France but his family hails from Mali. He had the choice of playing for either country and chose to play for Mali. Sagna wants to play for France, the country where he was born, raised, and trained in football. Whatever their reasons, it’s their individual choice. I also lament at the affect on smaller, poorer nations but players shouldn’t be shackled to play for countries they weren’t even born and raised in if they choose not to.

Arsenal’s Eduardo da Silva was born in Brazil and emigrated to Croatia at the age of 15. He acclimatized himself to the culture, married a Croatian, became Dinamo Zagreb’s most important player (and team captain) and chose to take Croatian nationality. He is now Croatia’s best striker, a very critical member of the NT. He speaks the language fluently but has never forgotten Portuguese and keeps regular contact with relatives in Brazil. He is both Brazilian and Croatian.

Posted from  United States

actually djibril cisse is from senegal not ivory cost

Posted from  United States

[...] by France and the African nation of their parent’s birth. Some, like Arsenal fullback Bacary Sagna, choose to play for France. Sagna was born south of Paris to Senegalese parents. On the other hand, [...]

Posted from  United States